A Conversation with Tyler Hansen
Interview conducted and transcribed by Kathryn Brewer
This month on the blog, I had the opportunity to talk with Tyler Hansen, a fifth year graduate student in the Emily Hodges lab. We chatted about a little bit of everything, from the woes of coding to the possibility of starting a monthly tea time to foster inclusion in the department.* We ended with a look at Tyler’s own challenges as a new father, and a discussion over the importance of consistency and agency for student success. I certainly enjoyed speaking with Tyler, and I hope you enjoy it too!
*Note: since having this conversation, the DEI committee has started planning a tea time, kicking off in July. Details coming soon!
KB: Thanks so much Tyler for giving me your time to interview for the DEI blog today.
TH: Yeah of course, thank you guys for doing this, this is fun.
KB: First, could you just introduce yourself to us and tell us about what you do here?
TH: Sure. I’m a fifth year grad student in Emily Hodges’ lab, and I do work on gene regulation, studying the differences between humans and macaques to really understand human evolution. I do techniques in both the wet lab and in the dry lab, and so a big aspect of my work is understanding how to code and use computational tools. That’s been a really fun experience.
What else? I was the BSA president last year. And in that role, I felt like I had to really think a lot about DEI issues and how can we fix some problems that I think are systemic, not just here, but in academia as a whole. And so with that, I’m also serving on the DEI committee with you, of course.
KB: Was coding something that you knew already coming into graduate school? Or were you hitting the ground running and figuring it out as you go?
TH: Yes, I didn’t know anything about programming, or coding… literally nothing. When I first came to Vanderbilt, in my first rotation I learned a little bit. But even when I joined Emily’s lab, I didn’t really know anything. I learned it ad hoc as I went, and it took a while, but you can definitely do it if you teach yourself and commit some frustration to it.
KB: Yeah, it was very similar for me. I did a rotation in the Meiler lab, and I learned some Bash and some Python there. I was also very green to coding. And I figured out that most of learning how to code is honestly learning how to read files to figure out, “Alright, where’s the error?” And then figuring out how to search Google wisely to find what you need.
TH: Yes, learning how to Google is a very important skill for not just coding, but I think for grad school as a whole because… I don’t know what did people do before Google?
KB: They had to go to the library and look up actual textbooks.
TH: Yeah I know, it’s crazy.
KB: What a world. What is your favorite thing about what you do? What do you love about the research that you get to do? Is it the combination of the wet lab/dry lab, keeping your hands in both things, or what’s the most interesting to you?
TH: You know, I think in my particular field, there’s someone who generates the data, then there’s someone who analyzes the data. And I really appreciate that being able to do both was encouraged in my lab. But I think also just being in a smaller lab and not having a bioinformatician, I was really forced to, once I generated my own data, be able to analyze it. And so I really like the fact that I’m pretty independent, where I can generate my own functional genomic data, and then actually analyze it. And I used to absolutely hate the dry lab stuff, because I come from a wet lab background, and I used to get really frustrated because I had to sit down at a desk all the time and it kind of feels like you’re working a boring job in a cubicle sometimes. But I’ve really grown to appreciate it. So yeah, I enjoy doing both of those things a lot.
KB: Well, and I think it’s especially challenging when you’re starting out, not knowing anything about it, because you feel like it’s taking forever and there’s such a steep learning curve when you are the person behind every stage of the project. But I think you’re right, too, in that there’s also having that independence. And at the end of the day it takes more time and more frustration, but you also have a much more complete understanding of what your story is, because you were there for the whole thing.
TH: Yeah, totally, totally agree with that.
KB: Now that we’ve talked about the things you really like about your research, we’re going to dig into some of the harder stuff. My favorite question, personally, has been this next question, which is about failures, because I think it’s important for us to talk about that. Everyone has failures and does silly things. So what are some of your more interesting or memorable wet lab or dry lab failures?
TH: Yeah, I think everyone has failures. I can’t think of specific instances I’ve had, but I think in my third and fourth year of grad school, post-qualifying exam, and pre-really understanding the data I’ve generated, I got really frustrated because I felt like I was going in a circle. I didn’t really know that much about data analysis, as we’ve mentioned, and I felt like the project was just never going to get finished. I felt like I didn’t see an end. I didn’t see a light at the end of the tunnel for this particular project, and it just ended up taking hammering away at the data and at different ideas for data analysis techniques to really get a good grasp of how to actually do the data analysis and eventually have this become a paper. So I think the failure for me, it was really not knowing what I was doing, and having to be okay with that was really difficult. There were multiple times I considered just taking the ATAC-STARR-seq project, and throwing it in the trash and starting something new. Now, I talked to my advisor about this a couple times, and she said, “No, you’ve got this really cool thing, you’ve got to stick to it, just trust the process. It’ll all work out.” And so I think that’s one of the things I’ve learned in grad school, that sometimes it’s hard to realize where something’s going. But I think if you just trust the process and realize that this is a career of delayed satisfaction, then it doesn’t become so hard to come in to work every day.
KB: You’re speaking to me right now, because I’m a mid fourth year at this point, and I was working on a project for a while that just wasn’t going anywhere. We eventually made the decision to change my direction, and now things are moving forward. But it can be really hard to be in that spot where you’re not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, right? Where did you find your encouragement and support during that part of your grad school experience?
TH: I found a lot of support from my advisor, but also my lab was really great. I think when you get into your research, you’re looking at it from such an in-depth view that you can forget where it fits into the rest of the field. And I think Emily and the rest of my lab were really good at telling me, “This is why what you’re doing is really cool. The field will really appreciate the work you’re doing.” And so I think realizing what I’m doing is actually going to help someone in science move the field forward really helped motivate me to keep coming into lab and keep doing the work I was doing. And those people helped make me see that. Tony Capra and Sarah Fong were really helpful too.
KB: Well, shifting gears a little bit, because this is a blog for our Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Initiative, I want to also take some time to talk about those kinds of subjects. As you said, you were the president of the BSA for a while and so you’ve been thinking about these kinds of issues. What kind of changes would you like to see in the Vanderbilt community to enhance DEI?
TH: I think that for DEI, the kind of things that we can influence a students, a lot of it is the inclusion aspect of it. I think that the diversity and the equity part of it, that’s more at the departmental level. You can try to advocate for change in that direction, but as students, I think what we can really do is make this place a much more inclusive environment. And so, one of the things I think is super beneficial, which to me sounds very simple, is to have events where people in the biochemistry department or other places in Vanderbilt just get to talk to each other. You don’t need to necessarily force conversations about DEI or something like that. But one of the coolest things about science to me is that there’s people from everywhere around the world that we get to speak to, and we get to hear their cultures and really understand where they come from. And I think a lot of those conversations, at least in my experience, have come up naturally. And so I think just getting people who love science but have very different backgrounds together just to talk about their life experiences or their perspective on certain things. I think it’s a really simple thing and it doesn’t require much effort, but I think having events where people are together would help build this inclusive environment.
It can even be something like what we did in my undergrad institution. Every week, all of the trainees got a coffee and tea, and there was a coffee hour that the department paid for. And, basically, the idea is you would… if we were doing it here, someone would order coffee and tea, bring it to the break room on the 6th floor Light Hall, and just say, “come and have some coffee and sit and chat and take a break from your work.” I don’t know, something like that. I just think getting to talk to people who you don’t necessarily talk to on a daily basis is helpful to get everyone out of their bubble.
KB: Yeah, I think that’s a really good idea. That’s something to definitely think about. Something that I’ve noticed is that at a lot of social events, we all have tendencies to either hang out with our friends or hang out with people that we already know. So I think the question would be, how would we help facilitate conversations more broadly at something like this, as opposed to everyone just spending time with people they already know?
TH: I totally agree with that. And that’s where we can have events like this, where we have people sit in a certain spot or something, and I think something like that would be okay. I think if you’re trying to almost force a conversation about DEI, because it is difficult to talk about that, the realistic outcome of that is a lot of people aren’t going to show up. But I think if the whole point of this is just to talk to someone that’s not in your lab or talk to someone that you haven’t had the experience to talk to, I don’t think that’s so scary.
KB: No, I don’t think that’s scary.
TH: Like a lot of us know each other. At my talk for colloquium, everyone was raising their hand, and I was calling them by their first name. And in that moment, I was thinking, “Wow, I know a lot of these people, and I don’t necessarily know their backgrounds, but it would be awesome if there was a time where I could just chat with them about something other than science.”
KB: Yeah. That’s something to think about. I’m going to take that with me and stew on it. Now that we’ve talked about the department, I’m really interested in hearing about you. Have you had any challenging experiences with the DEI yourself, and how did you deal with that? I’m thinking especially because you’re a new dad. That’s not a situation a lot of graduate students experience.
TH: Yeah, you know, outside the context of being a new dad, I’m a white guy, so I don’t have the same experiences from that standpoint. And I’m definitely aware of that. And so when I’m thinking about these things, I try to get a lot of perspectives on it. But in the context of being a dad, I learned that there’s a lot of challenges I’ve had to face. One of the things I didn’t realize is how much I think our society still views parenting as a “motherly” responsibility. And I think that does a huge disservice to women. If society views that if you have a kid, that the wife is the one who should really be doing the parenting, that’s not good. And so, if that’s what the expectation is, women may decide they don’t want to pursue a career in academia, right? Or really in anything that requires a heavy workload.
That’s the first thing, but then when it comes to someone like me, I would say my wife and I have very equal responsibility when it comes to our child. And it’s really frustrating when… sometimes I’ll be at the grocery store and I’ll get someone who says, “Are you giving mom the day off?” Or, “Where’s mom?” And it’s really frustrating, because people look at me, thinking “You can’t take care of a baby”, or “You’re just dad.” And that’s not necessarily that bad. But I think that kind of thinking really hurts a lot of the decisions we make as a society.
Another thing I’m going to say about this, I think raising a kid is a very unique experience. And it’s really hard to understand what it requires if you’re not actively doing it. I’ve had several experiences, that I’ve heard of or been around for, where there’s been decisions made about people’s careers, whether or not someone gets a job or whether or not someone is given a task to handle, and clearly one of the questions at the forefront of mind of the person who’s making decision is, “Well, I don’t know if this person can handle it, they have kids.” And I really want that idea to be taken out of academia, because I think academia is, at least my opinion, a really great environment to have kids in, and because it’s so flexible, your hours are so flexible. When it comes to kids, that’s, in my opinion, the most important thing. You know, if your kid is sick, you can actually take the day off and be with them, and that’s okay. In a lot of other careers, you can’t do that. And so I think academia is a great career. But I think there’s this idea in academia that you can’t have kids if you want to be successful. I don’t know how to counter that. But that’s my two cents as a new father.
KB: There’s a lot to unpack there. Thank you for sharing. I hadn’t thought about the fact that in those kinds of comments that you hear, sometimes there’s almost an undertone of, “Dad isn’t as responsible for his children,” or even that he doesn’t care as much. He’ll be responsible for his child just to “give mom the day off,” but not because he would just do that because he loves his child and he cares.
TH: Yeah. And if you look at all of the parenting books, 90% of them are targeted at mom. And the 10% that are targeted at both or dad, typically they have a vibe of “This isn’t that serious.” It’s the books targeted at mom that are very, “This is very serious and you need to think about all these things.” I think we live in a society where it’s still expected that mom is going to be the one that’s in charge of the baby. And that’s just not true.
KB: I also like what you said about this perception that we can have, especially in academia, towards giving someone responsibilities or not because they have family obligations. I’m thinking specifically about this idea of not shying away from asking for excellence or asking for commitment from someone because they have other obligations. I think that’s a really good point.
TH: Yeah. I think specifically in academia, if I’m a PI and I have this spot where I can give one of my students a talk, whether or not someone has kids should not factor into my decision of who I pick. I think you should think about the fact that the person who has kids knows what they can handle, and it’s up to them to do the work that they need to get done. And you shouldn’t determine that they can’t do the work because they have kids.
KB: Because the decision should be based on their capacity within the role that you’re considering and not an outside thing.
TH: Exactly.
KB: And, this is not just for a new parent. There are students who maybe have older parents who are ill, and they have outside obligations there. It seems like the onus on deciding who gets what, and what someone can handle should fall on the person who’s being asked.
TH: Yeah, you never know what’s going on in someone’s personal life. Just see what they can do in their professional life and use that when you make your decisions. Don’t try to unpack someone’s personal life and use that as a way to validate decisions that you’re making. I’m not saying anyone has done this, but personally, I’m aware that this is a thing that happens, and I’ve seen it happen to other people too. And so I just… yeah, it’s frustrating. And like you said, that extends beyond having kids. You had an example of taking care of your parents who may be ill, or you might have some medical condition that is debilitating, and you really do all you can do, you put all your effort into being in lab, but then when you go home, you can’t do anything.
KB: So, make your decisions based on the person’s capacity for their role. But I think also normalizing people being able to say no if they know there’s something in their personal life that would keep them from taking on an extra task is important too. On the flip side, if the person divvying out responsibilities isn’t the one making these calls, which I think I agree with you about, we do need to be able to normalize the person on the receiving being able to say, “Actually, no, I can’t do this for you at this time.”
TH: Yes, totally. If we’re expecting mentors to make decisions that have to do with how we’re doing in a professional setting, if there’s something going on in our personal lives, or if we can’t add to our workload, the person asking should respect that we are comfortable telling them when we can’t do it. Because they’re not going to know otherwise.
KB: I like that. So we’re now wrapping up at the end. Do you have any additional advice or anything that you want to share with your colleagues in the in the Biochem department? Some closing thoughts as it were?
TH: I’ve been thinking a lot about grad school. As a senior grad student, I’ve been thinking about what makes a successful grad student and I think… you know, there’s this whole idea from Angela Duckworth. She wrote a book about grit. And I think grit is a really important trait for grad students, but I think it’s misinterpreted. Sometimes I think grit can be misinterpreted as “you need to basically be committed to this job and work long hours, and even though you might not like it sometimes, that’s what you need to be doing.” I don’t think that’s the right answer. I think grit, is the longevity of waking up every day, coming into lab, and putting in at least a 40 hour work week type effort that is going to carry your project forward. At least how I view it, putting in this type of effort consistently for several years is compounding and will carry you so far. The trouble is that it is hard to see in the moment and so I think we tend to push ourselves constantly, day in and day out. But 6 years of that grind is going to cause you to burnout and lose your love of science. And so I would say my biggest advice in speaking to that is really, give yourself a break, understanding that you still have to put in the work. Really just focus on the longevity of what you’re doing and know that that’s really what’s going to cause success in your career. It’s not the working 80 hours a week for four months. It’s really the consistency of working at least 40 hours a week for four years, that is really going to help you in the long run.
KB: Yeah, so I’m hearing that the PhD is a marathon, not a sprint.
TH: Yes, that’s a really great way to put it right. And it’s that consistency, and that level of grit and resilience that I think is what really helps you become a successful scientist.
KB: So it’s really like, figure out what you can give. Consistently.
TH: Yes. Consistency. I mean, with anything, I think consistency is always the key. And I think it’s hard for our human brains sometimes to value consistency, because we want things now. And so really focus on the fact that it’s a marathon, not a sprint. There’s always going to be some talk, some manuscript writing, something that you’re going to be working towards. And so, if your attitude is, “I’ll give myself a break after I write this manuscript,” something else is going to be down the road. And so there’s never really going to be a great time to take a break, it’s never going to be a great time to have a baby, if that’s what you want to do, there’s never going to be a good time to, you know, take a vacation. So you just need to decide to do those things and know that it’s the consistency over time which is really going to carry you forward. And just to add to that, I think there are moments where we’re really excited about our science, or we’re really excited about what we’re doing. And by all means, if you want to work 80 hours a week, go ahead. There’s no reason you can’t. If that’s what you want to be doing, or that makes you happy, go ahead and do that. I just think that if you’re dreading coming into lab, that’s when maybe you should be thinking about changing your perspective.
KB: Well, that’s all I’ve got for you. Thanks so much for spending this half hour with me and talking about lots of stuff, some of which I know wasn’t the easiest to talk about. So yeah, I appreciate it.
TH: Thank you so much. I really like what you guys are doing with this blog, and I’ve enjoyed reading them.
I hope you enjoyed this installment of the Biochem DEI blog! I appreciated Tyler’s thoughtfulness and candor through the whole interview, and thought he offered simple, balanced solutions to some very difficult problems. Please comment below with your thoughts, and if you have someone you would like to hear from, or want to share your own perspective, email Alexandra Blee at alexandra.blee@vanderbilt.edu.
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